Apple OS X Support?

[aalst]

Are there any plans in the near future to support Apple's OS X?

I wouldn't think it a difficult port from the Linux version to the Darwin version, but I could be wrong.

Since Java is "supposed" to be cross platform, it would be very useful for a tool like JET to be as cross platform as possible, at least the big 3.

Please let me know... thanks...

[zztop]

We like the idea but at this time, demand for Mac OS X is not high so porting Excelsior JET to Mac OS X will not pay back. Maybe things will change after the transition of Mac to the Intel hardware.

Moreover, it depends on Apple's decision that may wish (or not wish) to share with us its source code for native methods, especially those from AWT. We have no plans  to write them from scratch.

[aalst]

Did you ever think there is no demand because there is no Java ahead-of-time compiler for the Mac? Did you ever think that you could create the demand by releasing it? Or that you could increase the use of Java on the Mac platform if it this was available.

(Yeah I know its a chicken before the egg type of issue)

I deal in creating and supporting Java applications that run in Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X. Trying to make that write once run any where dream as close to a reality as possible. (yeah right)

One of the few things holding use back from jumping in on JET is its lack of Mac OS X support. I would think everyone who has purchased a Windows/Linux license of JET would jump at obtaining a Mac OS X version of JET.

Thanks for your response...

[zztop]

When attending JAVA LICENSEE DAY organized by Sun Microsystems, we will discuss this opportunity with Apple representatives.

If they will express interest in porting Excelsior JET to Mac OS X, we will look at that more closely.

[mbmleone]

I'm also very interested in a Mac OS X version for JET. I'm currently developing a software product in Java for musicians and they use both Mac OS and Windows. Linux is hardly used by this usergroup.

I think that the use of Java in combination with JET will grow with JET versions for the 3 most used Operation Systems.
It will make developing java programs for these OS more attractive because you don't have problems with your Intellectual Property anymore. I think a lot of JET users then will also consider MacOS version of their software.

I hope the Apple representatives also see these advantages.

[mbmleone]

Is there any news on a Mac OS X version of JET?

[zztop]

In May 2006, we had a meeting with the Apple Java Team when attending Java Licensee Day in San Francisco.

There are some technical issues because the Java framework is tightly integrated with the OS core. It may increase the cost of porting Excelsior JET to Mac OS X.

We will not start the work until we get convinced that it will pay back. We plan to include the question about Mac OS version in the next Excelsior JET customer survey.

Any thoughts that can help us to make the decision are welcome.

-- ZZ Top

P.S. to the "aalst" correspondent (see previous posts):

Did you ever think there is no demand because there is no Java ahead-of-time compiler for the Mac?

We do not think so.

Did you ever think that you could create the demand by releasing it?

Just by releasing - NO, by releasing and investing in marketing - MAYBE

And the marketing fraction is much bigger in this picture so we need to be sure first.

[Sprout]

I am also waiting patiently for Mac OS X support. Now that Mac is on Intel,  is it in the works?

[kit]

Unfortunately no. The cost of Mac OSX support is still too high and we cannot afford it at this time. 
Now we are concentrated on Java 6 support.

[davelloyd]

Let me add my vote for Mac OS X. Our product, Moviestorm, is a Java OpenGL app that would probably benefit hugely from JET *but* it is absolutely essential to our business that we support the Mac as well as Windows.

If you build it we will buy it ;-)

Dave Lloyd
Chief Technical Officer
Short Fuze Limited

[snowman]

Dave,

I regret we cannot promise the Mac OS X version to become available any time soon.

I am sure however that your Windows users would appreciate that huge benefit you are mentioning. 

Dmitry

[Sprout]

Many people want the intellectual property protection and speed of executables but there doesn't seem to be a way to do native executables on the Mac.  So who chooses Java to make applications they cannot release on the Mac (now more than 10% of the market and growing)? People choose Java because it is a multiplatorm API.   They will either use another language or go to another business model that assumes the bytecodes will be hacked and their software given away for free.   By not supporting 10% of the market, you are shrinking your own Windows market and increasing development interest in GCJ - two very bad outcomes from your perspective.

[zztop]

they cannot release on the Mac (now more than 10% of the market and growing)?

If you do not mean simply Mac but Mac+Java, 10% share is an overestimation.

Do you have a reference to a market research report?

-----------

By not supporting 10% of the market, you are shrinking your own Windows market and increasing development interest in GCJ - two very bad outcomes from your perspective.

I have to remind you that we also support Linux (that seems to grow as well).

Moreover, we do not give up on the Mac port, we're trying to better understand the  cost and benefits. Anyway, 64-bit version is number one on our list and we are working on it now.

As for GCJ, I believe it's a thing that should be just to let people feel the difference.   

[Sprout]

If you do not mean simply Mac but Mac+Java, 10% share is an overestimation.

Good point but I mean 10% of possible customers. If they buy my software, I can include the JVM in the installation process if not automate it completely.   I'm looking at it from a business point of view. I cannot release my Java code to 10% of computers because I cannot protect it from a hacker on the Mac. 

I am making music software.  Music composers comprise a very large user base of Macs, perhaps rivalling that of PCs.

Regarding Java performance issues, Eclipse IDE on my 867 MHz Mac with 2 gig RAM is CPU hungry.It is attrociously unresponsive when another app is running. The GC and JIT are a major headache.   

I run Reason and Logic music production apps simultaneously. Theses are apps with real-time controls and output. My app needs to connect with Reason for playback while Logic is running.
 
If I can't have a tool like yours upon completion of the coding within two years, I have to drop the Mac base or release byte code at a low price point or revert to JNI where there are bottlenecks. Any way you look at it, I lose. I've spent 180 hours so far on my Java code. I went part-time at my job to finish this project. My wife is not happy about the risks and the time spent. She doesn't know about THIS problem yet.

Can Excelsior native compiled code run on Apple's JVM? Or can Apple's JVM be modified to run native code if your Excelsior could target for Apple's JVM?  Not much work required for that I imagine. GCJ could probably do it if Apple modified their JVM.  Does Linux use X11? Mac OS X is UNIX. Can't you compile Excelsior for Mac Darwin and have Java apps run on x11?


If it costs more to make it for Mac, charge more.

Articles you requested on Mac market share:
http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/04/01/analyst-apples-us-consumer-market-share-now-21-percent/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/index.cfm?newsid=20751

[zztop]

Thanks for the links, we will check them.

Good point but I mean 10% of possible customers. If they buy my software, I can include the JVM in the installation process if not automate it completely.   I'm looking at it from a business point of view. I cannot release my Java code to 10% of computers because I cannot protect it from a hacker on the Mac.

Correct. In other words, it's 10% of the market of *your* product not ours.

Can Excelsior native compiled code run on Apple's JVM? Or can Apple's JVM be modified to run native code if your Excelsior could target for Apple's JVM?  Not much work required for that I imagine. GCJ could probably do it if Apple modified their JVM.  Does Linux use X11? Mac OS X is UNIX. Can't you compile Excelsior for Mac Darwin and have Java apps run on x11?

Sorry all this sounds absolutely meaningless from the technical standpoint

Not much work required for that I imagine.

It's an illusion to think so